| 本站网友 匿名 |
2014-01-01 17:23:15 发表 |
| 共产党忘了自己犯了多少错误,就是把错误强加于别人,共产党以前信共产主义，就把共产主义强加于别人，现在对金钱喜欢的不得了，他要举起什么，别人就拜什么，他把执政和信仰混为一谈，他不知道天主是不变的，是唯一主宰，他对待他不知道的问题，一点也不谦虚，不留后路，等到正像大白时，又往往不认帐。真害人又害己。希望以后能改正。 |
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2013-10-17 18:36:08 发表 |
| 让一个信仰马克思主义的无神论政府“三自原则办教”，并要求宗教服从一个世俗国家的宗教事务局的领导，这本身就是一个荒谬的命题。 |
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2013-10-14 19:58:42 发表 |
英语不好，用在线翻译 翻译的。请懂英语的继续翻译。
An interview with Joseph Han Zhi-hai, a bishop in China who does not have the recognition of the government in Beijing: "I come from a family that has known Jesus for four hundred years. My father and my mother baptized me eight days after my birth. They knew that the Church asks parents to baptize their children as soon as they can”
Interview with Joseph Han Zhi-hai by Gianni Valente
汉志海，约瑟夫主教在中国谁不承认政府在北京接受记者采访时：“我来自一个家庭，四百年已经知道耶稣，我的父亲和我的母亲，我受洗后八天我的出生，他们知道，教会要求家长尽快为他们可以以自己的孩子施洗“
由詹尼•瓦伦特与约瑟夫•汉志海专访
Lanzhou is one of the most polluted cities in the world. On some days, in the provincial capital of China’s northwest Gansu Province, the smog is so dense that one can’t even see Lanshan mountain that stands a few kilometers to the south. Instead the view of Joseph Han Zhi-hai, forty-six year old Archbishop of the metropolis on the Yellow River, continues to be clear and sharp even when he focuses on the delicate and troublesome passage that Chinese Catholicism is experiencing.
兰州是世界上污染最严重的城市之一。在某些日子里，在中国西北部的甘肃省省会，烟雾是如此密集，甚至不能看到岚山山，矗立着几公里到南部。相反，老的大都市大主教46年黄河，汉志海，约瑟夫的观点仍然是清晰和锐利的，甚至当他专注于中国天主教经历的微妙和麻烦通道。
Han was ordained bishop in 2003. The local and national political officials have not yet officially recognized his episcopal ordination. But his status as a successor of the apostles lacking government ‘certification’ does not prevent him working nor witnessing to the freedom of those who walk with heart at peace in the same faith of the apostles. He says of himself: “I come from a family that has known Jesus for four hundred years. My father and mother baptized me eight days after my birth. They knew that the Church asks parents to baptize their children as soon as they can”.
汉在2003年被祝圣的主教。地方和国家的政治官员尚未正式承认他的主教祝圣礼。但他的地位，缺乏政府'认证'使徒的继任者并不妨碍他的自由，谁走在和平与心脏在同一信仰的使徒工作也不见证。他对自己说：“我来自一个家庭，已经知道耶稣四百年。我的父亲和母亲洗礼时给我八天我出生后。他们知道，教会家长要求自己的孩子，只要他们能“施洗。
oseph Han Zhi-hai during a baptism
You were born in 1966. China was in the middle of the Cultural Revolution. What are your memories of your childhood years?
JOSEPH HAN ZHI-HAI: We lived in a village two hundred kilometers from Lanzhou. It was not a Catholic village, but the persecution arrived even there. During that time my parents and relatives kept their faith in their heart, without showing it in public, not even by simply going to church. They couldn’t do otherwise. Fortunately, our house was a little away from the others. For us it was easier to continue to pray together. My grandfather never ceased to recite prayers in the family. So he kept us in the faith.
oseph汉志海在一次洗礼
你出生于1966年。中国是在“文化大革命”的中间。什么是你的你的童年岁月的回忆？
JOSEPH汉志海：我们住在一个村子里，从兰州200公里。这不是一个天主教村庄，但迫害甚至到达那里。在那段时间里，我的父母和亲戚保持自己的信仰，在他们的心里，没有表现出它在公众面前，甚至没有简单地去教堂。否则他们不能这样做。幸运的是，我们的房子是从别人一点点远。对于我们来说是比较容易继续一起祈祷。我爷爷从来没有停止过在家庭背诵祈祷。于是，他让我们在信仰。
Then, growing up, who were the other important people you met along the way?
Certainly Father Philip, who would then in 1981 become bishop of Lanzhou and was to ordain me priest. He was freed in 1978 after thirty years of imprisonment and isolation, and from that day, as soon as he regained his freedom, without a single word of complaint he began preaching the gospel round the villages and countryside. He went around all the time visiting the Christians in the region, house by house, to say mass and pray with them and comfort them all. I was a young student at the time. Watching him, the desire was born in me to become a priest. But then there was no seminary. We went around seeking the few old manuals and theology and doctrine texts that had survived the destruction. We studied with what little we could find. Then the government allowed us to rebuild the churches. So the families came together to build their own chapels and parishes. And thus faith blossomed once again.
然后，长大，谁是你一路上遇见的其他重要的人吗？
当然，父亲菲利普，然后在1981年成为兰州主教祝圣我牧师。他被释放后，于1978年30年的监禁和隔离，从那天起，只要他重获自由，没有一个单一的一句怨言，他开始传福音轮，村庄和乡村。他周围所有的时间去参观了在该地区的基督徒，房子房子，说群众，并与他们一起祷告，并安慰他们所有。我是一个年轻的学生时代。看着他，出生在我的愿望，成为一名牧师。但后来有没有温床。我们四处寻找几个老手册和神学和教义文本幸存下来的破坏。我们研究的一点，我们可以找到什么。然后，政府允许我们重建教堂。所以家庭走到了一起，建立自己的小教堂和教区。从而信心再次开花。
Comparing that period to the present, what has changed in the lives of ordinary Catholics?
Today I see a lot of openness, there is more freedom compared to then. In our community there is still a lot of faith but in young people we also see a weakness in some way linked to the new materialism marking society. The risk of drifting away is linked more to the consumerism and materialism of modern life than difficulties in relations with the government.
And how do you work with young people and children?
We work primarily with students in the years prior to university. We set up study classes during the summer and during the New Year holidays. But what matters is one-to-one relations between individuals rather than collective efforts.
How and when did you become a priest?
比较那个时期到现在，普通天主教徒的生活发生了哪些变化？
今天，我看到了很多的开放，有更多的自由，然后。在我们的社会中，仍然是一个很大的信心，但在年轻人中，我们也看到以某种方式链接到的新唯物主义标记社会的一个弱点。风险渐行渐远的与更多的困难，与政府的关系比现代生活的消费主义和物质。
你怎么与年轻人和儿童工作？
我们的工作主要是在未来几年的学生上大学前。在夏季和新年假期期间，我们建立了学习班。但重要的是个人而非集体努力的一对一的关系。
如何以及何时成为一个牧师？
It was in 1994. There were five of us that time ordained priest by Bishop Philip. None of us had attended the seminaries reopened in China under government control. I received the fundamental lessons from a layman who knew theology.
Then, some years after the death of Philip, you yourself became a bishop. But you were ordained without getting approval and permits from the government apparatus.
It was January 2003. I had been aware for some time that the division between bishops and ‘official’ and ‘underground’ communities in China made no sense. The majority of the bishops elected in accordance with the government procedures had been legitimized by the Holy See and were also in communion with the Pope. So the old indications circulating in the Church warning against joint Eucharistic celebrations with priests and bishops who agreed to cooperate with the government to me seemed outdated and to be put away.
它是在1994年。我们有五个时间由菲利普主教晋铎。我们没有出席在中国政府控制下的神学院重开。我收到的根本的教训从一个门外汉，谁知道神学。
然后，若干年后死亡的菲利普，你成为了一名主教。但你没有得到政府机构的审批和许可证受戒。
这是2003年1月。我已经知道一段时间后，主教和中国“官方”和“地下”社区之间的分工是没有意义的。大部分已按照政府程序选出的主教教廷的合法化，也与教宗共融。所以老的迹象，对联合圣体圣事的庆祝活动，与谁同意与政府合作，我的神父和主教在教会警告循环似乎已经过时，要放好。
And then, you didn’t keep those thoughts to yourself ...
A few months after my ordination I wrote an open letter to invite all my brother bishops to heal the laceration among Chinese Catholics. The simplest thing to do was to confess with serenity and courage their communion in faith with the Pope. That would get rid of futile misunderstandings and harmful suspicions.
Things haven’t changed much today from the opening of the division.
In my opinion, to see the facts as they really are, we must make distinctions. The vast majority of bishops ordained according to government protocol are in communion with Rome, now more than ever. Nobody really wants to make a Chinese Church separate from the universal Church. The pressures are part of the political situation in which we find ourselves.
然后，你没有保持自己的这些想法...
几个月后，我的协调，我写了一封公开信，邀请我所有的主教弟兄们，中国天主教徒之间的裂伤愈合。最简单的事情做的是平静和勇气，他们的共融与教皇在信仰承认。这想摆脱徒劳的误解和有害怀疑。
事情已经没有太大的改变，从今天开幕的分工。
在我看来，看到他们真的是事实，我们必须做出区分。根据政府协议的绝大多数祝圣主教的共融与罗马，现在比以往任何时候都多。没人真的想要分开普世教会，使中国教会。压力的政治局势中，我们发现自己的一部分。
The city of Lanzhou, crossed by the Yellow River [? Corbis]
Is that why the division continues?
Within the clandestine community there are extremist groups that will not accept any challenge and condemn the others. Even among those who are registered with the structures of the religious policy of the government there are some who are heading along the wrong path. But I’m sure that the vast majority want and are awaiting full public and visible communion of all those who belong to the Catholic Church of China.
What is the best way of responding to the government claims?
I have taken advantage of the new spaces that have opened up. If I avoid conflict with the government, I can devote more energy and take advantage of more opportunities to preach the gospel to more people. That is why, in my opinion, the bishops should, where possible, leave the so-called underground condition, take account of the current situation and take a stance of debate and not conflict with the government.
What is the most serious effect of the division among Catholics?
兰州市，越过黄河[ ？ Corbis的]
为什么部门继续吗？
秘密社区内有极端团体，不会接受任何挑战和谴责他人。即使是那些谁登记与政府的宗教政策的结构有一些标题沿着错误的路径。但我敢肯定，绝大多数想要和正在等待所有那些属于中国天主教会的公共和可见的共融。
什么是最好的方式回应政府索赔？
我已利用开辟了新的空间。如果我与政府避免冲突，我可以投入更多的精力，并利用更多的机会传福音给更多的人。这就是为什么，在我看来，主教，在可能的情况下，离开所谓的地下条件，考虑到目前的情况，并与政府采取的立场的辩论，而不是冲突。
影响最严重的天主教徒之间的分工是什么？
he failure to share the Eucharist, accusing one another. Because if we profess the same faith, only communicating in the same chalice of the Body and Blood of Our Lord can revive unity and communion. The Eucharist is the source of this unity. If this sacramental source is lacking, unity cannot be reborn out of human reasoning nor out of appeals and indications coming from the outside.
Not even those that come from the Vatican?
Sometimes it seems that there are those who think that we here in China do not heed and do not follow Jesus. That is wrong. One must start from the fact that the Church of Christ is already here in China. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, as we profess in the Creed. Our community can flourish only if Jesus himself nourishes and holds together His Church here in China with His sacraments, preserving in it the faith of the Apostles. Part of this faith is communion with the Successor of Peter and obedience to his ministry, as was intended by Jesus. Otherwise, if that were not the case, if here in China there were not the Catholic faith between people and their pastors, it would be futile to make speeches or make disciplinary dispositions on these things.
That recognition inspired the view on the Church in China, expressed in the Letter Benedict XVI sent in 2007 to all Chinese Catholics. Didn’t that pronouncement of the Pope respond in clear fashion also to the questions you posed in your open letter of four years before?
他未能分享圣体，互相指责。因为如果我们信奉同样的信念，只有在同我们的主的身体和血的圣杯通信可以恢复团结和共融。圣体是这种统一的来源。如果此圣礼源缺乏，团结不能投胎人类的推理，也不出来自外部的上诉和适应症。
即使是那些来自梵蒂冈？
有时它似乎也有一些认为，我们在中国不重视和不跟随耶稣的人。这是错误的。一是必须从基督的教会已经是一个事实，即在中国。一，是圣洁的，天主教和使徒教会，因为我们信奉的信条。我们的社会能够蓬勃发展，只有耶稣自己滋养共同持有他的教会在中国与他的圣礼，保存在它的信仰的使徒。这种信仰的一部分是共融的继承人彼得和服从他的事工，旨在耶稣。否则，如果不是这样的话，如果在中国有没有信仰天主教的人，他们的牧师之间，这将是徒劳的，发表演讲或纪律处分，在这些事情上。
这种认识启发鉴于在中国的教会，教宗本笃十六世在2007年发送的全体中国天主教徒的信中表示。没有，宣告教皇也以明确的方式回应你的问题，提出了四年前在你的公开信？
The Pope’s Letter was a response to many important problems facing the Church in China. We read it with emotion, many had not expected so clear a letter and were surprised. But with the passage of time some people have added something else, other comments, partial interpretations have been offered purposely. And so, at least in part, that pronouncement has lost its force.
It’s said that some local political authorities blocked the circulation of that Letter.
In some regions there have been prohibitions, but they didn’t in fact work. The Letter circulated just the same. Whereas, in some provinces such as Fujian and Hebei, the Letter was received by some ecclesial communities with a certain reserve.
The publication of the Pope’s Letter was followed by a phase in which a larger number of bishops were ordained, recognized in parallel by the Holy See and the civil authorities in China. What do you think of this modus procedendi, experimented particularly in 2009 and 2010?
The government is going on with its policy. It wants to maintain some control over procedures for the appointment of bishops. In my opinion, if they approve the ordination of bishops who also have the apostolic mandate of the Pope, it would be the best way of proceeding. If the candidates selected are worthy and show themselves conscious of the responsibilities they are called to, we should avoid unnecessary objections and complications.
The fact is that the phase of the ordinations with ‘tacit parallel consent’ broke off when the civil powers imposed three illicit episcopal ordinations. The illicit bishops received excommunication, also made known by the Holy See. How do you view this situation?
If someone lets himself be ordained bishop knowing that the Holy See is contrary to his ordination, it is inevitable that canonical penalties apply. But we must always evaluate the circumstances case by case. Bearing in mind the particular situation in which we find ourselves, and the pressures that weigh on Chinese bishops.
教宗的信是中国教会面临的许多重要问题的回应。我们读它感慨，很多没有预期的那么清楚了一封信，并惊讶。但是，随着时间的推移，有些人加别的东西，其他的意见，部分诠释已故意提供。因此，至少有一部分，该宣告已经失去了它的力量。
有人说，一些地方政治当局封锁了那封信的流通。
在一些地区已经禁止，但他们并没有在实际上工作中。函件相同传阅。然而，在一些省份如福建，河北，函件收到一些教会团体具有一定的储备。
随后一个阶段，其中较大的一些主教祝圣，教廷和中国的民事当局平行确认公布教宗的信。你怎么认为这个作案procedendi ，特别是在2009年和2010年试验？
政府的政策是怎么回事。它要保持一定的控制程序任命主教。在我看来，如果他们也有使徒任务教皇的主教谁批准的协调，这将是最好的方式继续。如果考生选择的是值得的，并展示自己的责任，他们被称为意识，我们应该避免不必要的异议及并发症。
事实是，与默契并行同意“祝阶段爆发时施加民事权力的三个非法主教祝圣。收到非法主教逐出教会，也称为由罗马教廷。您如何看待这种情况？
如果有人让自己被祝圣的主教知道教廷是违背他的协调，这是不可避免的，规范的处罚适用。但是，我们必须始终评估个案情况。铭记的特殊情况中，我们发现自己的压力，打压中国的主教。
Faithful during Christmas Mass at a church in Beijing [? Getty Images]
After those events, suspicion has again fallen on all the bishops who agree to act in accordance with the religious policy of the government.
It must be said first of all that here in China we are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. We too are Catholic bishops, and we know what all this means. But being Catholic bishops in China, we live in this country, where there is a government that has a certain policy. At present, if you set yourself apart from that policy, the consequences are not as severe as before. But everything becomes more difficult: you enter a situation of conflict that makes the ordinary life of the Church and normal pastoral work more difficult. We must take this into account, precisely because of the task we have.
How do you show in practice you communion with the successor of Peter?
When I collaborate with the government I always openly and forcefully repeat that our communion with the Pope is essential for us Catholics. Our catholicity depends on it. But I must also say that they accept this. Or at least they have no objections to it. They follow their own policy, the political aspect is what interests them. The things that are crucial for us, such as fidelity to the Pope as guardian of Tradition, don’t seem to interest them much.
The fact remains that you are still in the position of ‘unofficial’ bishop, not recognized as a bishop by the government apparatus. Is something being worked out for you?
There is no other ‘official’ bishop approved by the government in Lanzhou. The government has been telling me for some time that soon they will recognize me as bishop of the diocese, but no specific date for this has yet been set.
If it happens do you fear there will be misunderstandings and bad feelings in the Church community?
We are all united on this. All share the same thought. Everybody sees that recognition by the government does not contradict and does not hinder communion with the Pope and the Universal Church.
在圣诞弥撒的教堂在北京[忠实？盖蒂图片]
经过这些事件，怀疑所有的主教，谁同意按照政府的宗教政策再次下降。
应该说首先，在中国，我们是在与罗马主教的共融。我们也有天主教的主教，我们知道这一切手段。但在中国的天主教主教，我们生活在这个国家，有政府，有一定的政策。目前，如果你设置自己除了这一政策，其后果并不像以前那么严重。但是，一切都变得更加困难：您输入冲突，使得普通的教会牧灵工作和正常的生活更加困难的局面。我们必须考虑到这一点，恰恰是因为我们的任务。
你怎么表示在实践中你共融与彼得的继任者？
当我与政府合作，我一直公开而有力地重复，我们与教宗共融我们天主教徒是必不可少的。我们的普遍性依赖于它。但我也必须说，他们接受这个。或者至少他们没有反对。他们按照自己的政策，政治方面是他们感兴趣的。对我们来说至关重要的事情是，如教皇的忠诚守护传统，似乎并不很多他们感兴趣的。
事实仍然是，你仍然在“非官方”的主教，而不是由政府机构作为主教确认的位置。为你工作了的东西吗？
有没有其他的'官方'主教由政府批准在兰州。政府已经告诉我了一段时间，不久他们会承认我为教区主教，但没有具体日期尚未确定。
如果碰巧你担心会有在教会界的误解和不良情绪？
在此，我们都很团结。都有着相同的思想。每个人都认为并不矛盾，政府认识到，不妨碍与教宗和普世教会的共融。
At that point you should have contact with the Patriotic Association, the inspection body set up by the regime. What shape would you give to relations with the PA?
Currently the head of the PA is still a layman. In future that role could be taken by one of the priests of the diocese, so as to handle everything in friendly fashion.
What would you say to the Pope to clarify the situation in China?
It’s a moment of confusion. It can’t continue like this. It would be useful to bear in mind two things for the future. First, we want to be in communion with the Pope, we want to be one heart with him. And then that clarity is needed in indicating what is wrong and must be corrected, among the anomalies of the circumstances in which we live. But in doing so, we must never lose contact. The channels that serve to keep us talking must be kept open. Because there are situations that can be solved only by debate.
You might well meet the Pope soon, when you’re summoned to Rome for the Synod of Bishops.
I’d be happy. But I don’t think I’ll mange to come...
在这一点上，你应该有与爱国协会，检验机构设立政权接触。你会给什么样的形状与PA的关系？
目前的PA是头部还是个门外汉。在今后的作用，可以采取由教区的祭司之一，因此，以友好的方式处理一切。
你会说什么教皇澄清中国的情况？
这是一个混乱的时刻。它不能继续这样。这将是有益牢记两件事情对未来。首先，我们要在与教宗共融，我们希望有一个与他的心脏。然后的清晰度是必要的，什么是错误的，必须予以纠正，在异常的情况下，我们生活在其中。但是，在这样做，我们必须永远不会失去联系。让我们谈论的渠道服务，必须保持开放。因为有可以解决的情况下，只有通过辩论。
你可能很好地满足教皇很快，当你传唤到罗马主教会议。
我会很高兴。但我不认为我会奶源来...
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-14 19:33:49 发表 |
本站网友 我雪儿
2013-09-18 23:17:03 发表 [13 楼]
极端的地下分子比爱国会的更坏，中国教会应该严力谴责这些不负责任，信口雌黄，任意评论别人的魔鬼们
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继续晒。 |
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2013-10-14 19:31:40 发表 |
本站网友 我雪儿 2013-09-19 17:15:47 发表 [17 楼]
八十年代地下教会确实有一批老神父老主教为教会的正确原则而坚贞不屈，对政府宗教政策的不明朗而敢于对抗，但是他们有原则，理性，而今天的地下教会的好多人都远离教会精神，有些地方干脆沦为一帮流氓，把教会搞得四分五裂，他们的行为充其量是为霸占教友，自私自利，制造矛盾，打着忠贞教会的名义实际上干着与信德相反的丑恶勾当，我们好不留情的给与彻底的揭露，
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晒一哈。 |
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2013-10-14 10:38:48 发表 |
| 甘肃天主教三次代表会开幕式新特色 |
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2013-10-12 09:34:48 发表 |
| 为什么都背对着大家？是不是见不得人？为什么都耷拉个脑袋？是不是问心有愧？ |
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2013-10-11 11:16:13 发表 |
| 请懂英语的翻译下楼上转发的30天采访稿 |
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2013-10-10 07:20:34 发表 |
懂英语的请翻译一下 刚在《30天》杂志的英文版瞄了一眼，发现他们采访兰州总主教区韩志海主教的这篇文章，转载到这里分享之。An interview with Joseph Han Zhi-hai, a bishop in China who does not have the recognition of the government in Beijing: "I come from a family that has known Jesus for four hundred years. My father and my mother baptized me eight days after my birth. They knew that the Church asks parents to baptize their children as soon as they can”
Interview with Joseph Han Zhi-hai by Gianni Valente
Lanzhou is one of the most polluted cities in the world. On some days, in the provincial capital of China’s northwest Gansu Province, the smog is so dense that one can’t even see Lanshan mountain that stands a few kilometers to the south. Instead the view of Joseph Han Zhi-hai, forty-six year old Archbishop of the metropolis on the Yellow River, continues to be clear and sharp even when he focuses on the delicate and troublesome passage that Chinese Catholicism is experiencing.
Han was ordained bishop in 2003. The local and national political officials have not yet officially recognized his episcopal ordination. But his status as a successor of the apostles lacking government ‘certification’ does not prevent him working nor witnessing to the freedom of those who walk with heart at peace in the same faith of the apostles. He says of himself: “I come from a family that has known Jesus for four hundred years. My father and mother baptized me eight days after my birth. They knew that the Church asks parents to baptize their children as soon as they can”.
Joseph Han Zhi-hai during a baptism
You were born in 1966. China was in the middle of the Cultural Revolution. What are your memories of your childhood years?
JOSEPH HAN ZHI-HAI: We lived in a village two hundred kilometers from Lanzhou. It was not a Catholic village, but the persecution arrived even there. During that time my parents and relatives kept their faith in their heart, without showing it in public, not even by simply going to church. They couldn’t do otherwise. Fortunately, our house was a little away from the others. For us it was easier to continue to pray together. My grandfather never ceased to recite prayers in the family. So he kept us in the faith.
Then, growing up, who were the other important people you met along the way?
Certainly Father Philip, who would then in 1981 become bishop of Lanzhou and was to ordain me priest. He was freed in 1978 after thirty years of imprisonment and isolation, and from that day, as soon as he regained his freedom, without a single word of complaint he began preaching the gospel round the villages and countryside. He went around all the time visiting the Christians in the region, house by house, to say mass and pray with them and comfort them all. I was a young student at the time. Watching him, the desire was born in me to become a priest. But then there was no seminary. We went around seeking the few old manuals and theology and doctrine texts that had survived the destruction. We studied with what little we could find. Then the government allowed us to rebuild the churches. So the families came together to build their own chapels and parishes. And thus faith blossomed once again.
Comparing that period to the present, what has changed in the lives of ordinary Catholics?
Today I see a lot of openness, there is more freedom compared to then. In our community there is still a lot of faith but in young people we also see a weakness in some way linked to the new materialism marking society. The risk of drifting away is linked more to the consumerism and materialism of modern life than difficulties in relations with the government.
And how do you work with young people and children?
We work primarily with students in the years prior to university. We set up study classes during the summer and during the New Year holidays. But what matters is one-to-one relations between individuals rather than collective efforts.
How and when did you become a priest?
It was in 1994. There were five of us that time ordained priest by Bishop Philip. None of us had attended the seminaries reopened in China under government control. I received the fundamental lessons from a layman who knew theology.
Then, some years after the death of Philip, you yourself became a bishop. But you were ordained without getting approval and permits from the government apparatus.
It was January 2003. I had been aware for some time that the division between bishops and ‘official’ and ‘underground’ communities in China made no sense. The majority of the bishops elected in accordance with the government procedures had been legitimized by the Holy See and were also in communion with the Pope. So the old indications circulating in the Church warning against joint Eucharistic celebrations with priests and bishops who agreed to cooperate with the government to me seemed outdated and to be put away.
And then, you didn’t keep those thoughts to yourself ...
A few months after my ordination I wrote an open letter to invite all my brother bishops to heal the laceration among Chinese Catholics. The simplest thing to do was to confess with serenity and courage their communion in faith with the Pope. That would get rid of futile misunderstandings and harmful suspicions.
Things haven’t changed much today from the opening of the division.
In my opinion, to see the facts as they really are, we must make distinctions. The vast majority of bishops ordained according to government protocol are in communion with Rome, now more than ever. Nobody really wants to make a Chinese Church separate from the universal Church. The pressures are part of the political situation in which we find ourselves.
The city of Lanzhou, crossed by the Yellow River [? Corbis]
Is that why the division continues?
Within the clandestine community there are extremist groups that will not accept any challenge and condemn the others. Even among those who are registered with the structures of the religious policy of the government there are some who are heading along the wrong path. But I’m sure that the vast majority want and are awaiting full public and visible communion of all those who belong to the Catholic Church of China.
What is the best way of responding to the government claims?
I have taken advantage of the new spaces that have opened up. If I avoid conflict with the government, I can devote more energy and take advantage of more opportunities to preach the gospel to more people. That is why, in my opinion, the bishops should, where possible, leave the so-called underground condition, take account of the current situation and take a stance of debate and not conflict with the government.
What is the most serious effect of the division among Catholics?
The failure to share the Eucharist, accusing one another. Because if we profess the same faith, only communicating in the same chalice of the Body and Blood of Our Lord can revive unity and communion. The Eucharist is the source of this unity. If this sacramental source is lacking, unity cannot be reborn out of human reasoning nor out of appeals and indications coming from the outside.
Not even those that come from the Vatican?
Sometimes it seems that there are those who think that we here in China do not heed and do not follow Jesus. That is wrong. One must start from the fact that the Church of Christ is already here in China. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, as we profess in the Creed. Our community can flourish only if Jesus himself nourishes and holds together His Church here in China with His sacraments, preserving in it the faith of the Apostles. Part of this faith is communion with the Successor of Peter and obedience to his ministry, as was intended by Jesus. Otherwise, if that were not the case, if here in China there were not the Catholic faith between people and their pastors, it would be futile to make speeches or make disciplinary dispositions on these things.
That recognition inspired the view on the Church in China, expressed in the Letter Benedict XVI sent in 2007 to all Chinese Catholics. Didn’t that pronouncement of the Pope respond in clear fashion also to the questions you posed in your open letter of four years before?
The Pope’s Letter was a response to many important problems facing the Church in China. We read it with emotion, many had not expected so clear a letter and were surprised. But with the passage of time some people have added something else, other comments, partial interpretations have been offered purposely. And so, at least in part, that pronouncement has lost its force.
It’s said that some local political authorities blocked the circulation of that Letter.
In some regions there have been prohibitions, but they didn’t in fact work. The Letter circulated just the same. Whereas, in some provinces such as Fujian and Hebei, the Letter was received by some ecclesial communities with a certain reserve.
The publication of the Pope’s Letter was followed by a phase in which a larger number of bishops were ordained, recognized in parallel by the Holy See and the civil authorities in China. What do you think of this modus procedendi, experimented particularly in 2009 and 2010?
The government is going on with its policy. It wants to maintain some control over procedures for the appointment of bishops. In my opinion, if they approve the ordination of bishops who also have the apostolic mandate of the Pope, it would be the best way of proceeding. If the candidates selected are worthy and show themselves conscious of the responsibilities they are called to, we should avoid unnecessary objections and complications.
The fact is that the phase of the ordinations with ‘tacit parallel consent’ broke off when the civil powers imposed three illicit episcopal ordinations. The illicit bishops received excommunication, also made known by the Holy See. How do you view this situation?
If someone lets himself be ordained bishop knowing that the Holy See is contrary to his ordination, it is inevitable that canonical penalties apply. But we must always evaluate the circumstances case by case. Bearing in mind the particular situation in which we find ourselves, and the pressures that weigh on Chinese bishops.
Faithful during Christmas Mass at a church in Beijing [? Getty Images]
After those events, suspicion has again fallen on all the bishops who agree to act in accordance with the religious policy of the government.
It must be said first of all that here in China we are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. We too are Catholic bishops, and we know what all this means. But being Catholic bishops in China, we live in this country, where there is a government that has a certain policy. At present, if you set yourself apart from that policy, the consequences are not as severe as before. But everything becomes more difficult: you enter a situation of conflict that makes the ordinary life of the Church and normal pastoral work more difficult. We must take this into account, precisely because of the task we have.
How do you show in practice you communion with the successor of Peter?
When I collaborate with the government I always openly and forcefully repeat that our communion with the Pope is essential for us Catholics. Our catholicity depends on it. But I must also say that they accept this. Or at least they have no objections to it. They follow their own policy, the political aspect is what interests them. The things that are crucial for us, such as fidelity to the Pope as guardian of Tradition, don’t seem to interest them much.
The fact remains that you are still in the position of ‘unofficial’ bishop, not recognized as a bishop by the government apparatus. Is something being worked out for you?
There is no other ‘official’ bishop approved by the government in Lanzhou. The government has been telling me for some time that soon they will recognize me as bishop of the diocese, but no specific date for this has yet been set.
If it happens do you fear there will be misunderstandings and bad feelings in the Church community?
We are all united on this. All share the same thought. Everybody sees that recognition by the government does not contradict and does not hinder communion with the Pope and the Universal Church.
At that point you should have contact with the Patriotic Association, the inspection body set up by the regime. What shape would you give to relations with the PA?
Currently the head of the PA is still a layman. In future that role could be taken by one of the priests of the diocese, so as to handle everything in friendly fashion.
What would you say to the Pope to clarify the situation in China?
It’s a moment of confusion. It can’t continue like this. It would be useful to bear in mind two things for the future. First, we want to be in communion with the Pope, we want to be one heart with him. And then that clarity is needed in indicating what is wrong and must be corrected, among the anomalies of the circumstances in which we live. But in doing so, we must never lose contact. The channels that serve to keep us talking must be kept open. Because there are situations that can be solved only by debate.
You might well meet the Pope soon, when you’re summoned to Rome for the Synod of Bishops.
I’d be happy. But I don’t think I’ll mange to come... |
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2013-10-09 20:52:44 发表 |
刚在《30天》杂志的英文版瞄了一眼，发现他们采访兰州总主教区韩志海主教的这篇文章，转载到这里分享之。An interview with Joseph Han Zhi-hai, a bishop in China who does not have the recognition of the government in Beijing: "I come from a family that has known Jesus for four hundred years. My father and my mother baptized me eight days after my birth. They knew that the Church asks parents to baptize their children as soon as they can”
Interview with Joseph Han Zhi-hai by Gianni Valente
Lanzhou is one of the most polluted cities in the world. On some days, in the provincial capital of China’s northwest Gansu Province, the smog is so dense that one can’t even see Lanshan mountain that stands a few kilometers to the south. Instead the view of Joseph Han Zhi-hai, forty-six year old Archbishop of the metropolis on the Yellow River, continues to be clear and sharp even when he focuses on the delicate and troublesome passage that Chinese Catholicism is experiencing.
Han was ordained bishop in 2003. The local and national political officials have not yet officially recognized his episcopal ordination. But his status as a successor of the apostles lacking government ‘certification’ does not prevent him working nor witnessing to the freedom of those who walk with heart at peace in the same faith of the apostles. He says of himself: “I come from a family that has known Jesus for four hundred years. My father and mother baptized me eight days after my birth. They knew that the Church asks parents to baptize their children as soon as they can”.
Joseph Han Zhi-hai during a baptism
You were born in 1966. China was in the middle of the Cultural Revolution. What are your memories of your childhood years?
JOSEPH HAN ZHI-HAI: We lived in a village two hundred kilometers from Lanzhou. It was not a Catholic village, but the persecution arrived even there. During that time my parents and relatives kept their faith in their heart, without showing it in public, not even by simply going to church. They couldn’t do otherwise. Fortunately, our house was a little away from the others. For us it was easier to continue to pray together. My grandfather never ceased to recite prayers in the family. So he kept us in the faith.
Then, growing up, who were the other important people you met along the way?
Certainly Father Philip, who would then in 1981 become bishop of Lanzhou and was to ordain me priest. He was freed in 1978 after thirty years of imprisonment and isolation, and from that day, as soon as he regained his freedom, without a single word of complaint he began preaching the gospel round the villages and countryside. He went around all the time visiting the Christians in the region, house by house, to say mass and pray with them and comfort them all. I was a young student at the time. Watching him, the desire was born in me to become a priest. But then there was no seminary. We went around seeking the few old manuals and theology and doctrine texts that had survived the destruction. We studied with what little we could find. Then the government allowed us to rebuild the churches. So the families came together to build their own chapels and parishes. And thus faith blossomed once again.
Comparing that period to the present, what has changed in the lives of ordinary Catholics?
Today I see a lot of openness, there is more freedom compared to then. In our community there is still a lot of faith but in young people we also see a weakness in some way linked to the new materialism marking society. The risk of drifting away is linked more to the consumerism and materialism of modern life than difficulties in relations with the government.
And how do you work with young people and children?
We work primarily with students in the years prior to university. We set up study classes during the summer and during the New Year holidays. But what matters is one-to-one relations between individuals rather than collective efforts.
How and when did you become a priest?
It was in 1994. There were five of us that time ordained priest by Bishop Philip. None of us had attended the seminaries reopened in China under government control. I received the fundamental lessons from a layman who knew theology.
Then, some years after the death of Philip, you yourself became a bishop. But you were ordained without getting approval and permits from the government apparatus.
It was January 2003. I had been aware for some time that the division between bishops and ‘official’ and ‘underground’ communities in China made no sense. The majority of the bishops elected in accordance with the government procedures had been legitimized by the Holy See and were also in communion with the Pope. So the old indications circulating in the Church warning against joint Eucharistic celebrations with priests and bishops who agreed to cooperate with the government to me seemed outdated and to be put away.
And then, you didn’t keep those thoughts to yourself ...
A few months after my ordination I wrote an open letter to invite all my brother bishops to heal the laceration among Chinese Catholics. The simplest thing to do was to confess with serenity and courage their communion in faith with the Pope. That would get rid of futile misunderstandings and harmful suspicions.
Things haven’t changed much today from the opening of the division.
In my opinion, to see the facts as they really are, we must make distinctions. The vast majority of bishops ordained according to government protocol are in communion with Rome, now more than ever. Nobody really wants to make a Chinese Church separate from the universal Church. The pressures are part of the political situation in which we find ourselves.
The city of Lanzhou, crossed by the Yellow River [? Corbis]
Is that why the division continues?
Within the clandestine community there are extremist groups that will not accept any challenge and condemn the others. Even among those who are registered with the structures of the religious policy of the government there are some who are heading along the wrong path. But I’m sure that the vast majority want and are awaiting full public and visible communion of all those who belong to the Catholic Church of China.
What is the best way of responding to the government claims?
I have taken advantage of the new spaces that have opened up. If I avoid conflict with the government, I can devote more energy and take advantage of more opportunities to preach the gospel to more people. That is why, in my opinion, the bishops should, where possible, leave the so-called underground condition, take account of the current situation and take a stance of debate and not conflict with the government.
What is the most serious effect of the division among Catholics?
The failure to share the Eucharist, accusing one another. Because if we profess the same faith, only communicating in the same chalice of the Body and Blood of Our Lord can revive unity and communion. The Eucharist is the source of this unity. If this sacramental source is lacking, unity cannot be reborn out of human reasoning nor out of appeals and indications coming from the outside.
Not even those that come from the Vatican?
Sometimes it seems that there are those who think that we here in China do not heed and do not follow Jesus. That is wrong. One must start from the fact that the Church of Christ is already here in China. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, as we profess in the Creed. Our community can flourish only if Jesus himself nourishes and holds together His Church here in China with His sacraments, preserving in it the faith of the Apostles. Part of this faith is communion with the Successor of Peter and obedience to his ministry, as was intended by Jesus. Otherwise, if that were not the case, if here in China there were not the Catholic faith between people and their pastors, it would be futile to make speeches or make disciplinary dispositions on these things.
That recognition inspired the view on the Church in China, expressed in the Letter Benedict XVI sent in 2007 to all Chinese Catholics. Didn’t that pronouncement of the Pope respond in clear fashion also to the questions you posed in your open letter of four years before?
The Pope’s Letter was a response to many important problems facing the Church in China. We read it with emotion, many had not expected so clear a letter and were surprised. But with the passage of time some people have added something else, other comments, partial interpretations have been offered purposely. And so, at least in part, that pronouncement has lost its force.
It’s said that some local political authorities blocked the circulation of that Letter.
In some regions there have been prohibitions, but they didn’t in fact work. The Letter circulated just the same. Whereas, in some provinces such as Fujian and Hebei, the Letter was received by some ecclesial communities with a certain reserve.
The publication of the Pope’s Letter was followed by a phase in which a larger number of bishops were ordained, recognized in parallel by the Holy See and the civil authorities in China. What do you think of this modus procedendi, experimented particularly in 2009 and 2010?
The government is going on with its policy. It wants to maintain some control over procedures for the appointment of bishops. In my opinion, if they approve the ordination of bishops who also have the apostolic mandate of the Pope, it would be the best way of proceeding. If the candidates selected are worthy and show themselves conscious of the responsibilities they are called to, we should avoid unnecessary objections and complications.
The fact is that the phase of the ordinations with ‘tacit parallel consent’ broke off when the civil powers imposed three illicit episcopal ordinations. The illicit bishops received excommunication, also made known by the Holy See. How do you view this situation?
If someone lets himself be ordained bishop knowing that the Holy See is contrary to his ordination, it is inevitable that canonical penalties apply. But we must always evaluate the circumstances case by case. Bearing in mind the particular situation in which we find ourselves, and the pressures that weigh on Chinese bishops.
Faithful during Christmas Mass at a church in Beijing [? Getty Images]
After those events, suspicion has again fallen on all the bishops who agree to act in accordance with the religious policy of the government.
It must be said first of all that here in China we are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. We too are Catholic bishops, and we know what all this means. But being Catholic bishops in China, we live in this country, where there is a government that has a certain policy. At present, if you set yourself apart from that policy, the consequences are not as severe as before. But everything becomes more difficult: you enter a situation of conflict that makes the ordinary life of the Church and normal pastoral work more difficult. We must take this into account, precisely because of the task we have.
How do you show in practice you communion with the successor of Peter?
When I collaborate with the government I always openly and forcefully repeat that our communion with the Pope is essential for us Catholics. Our catholicity depends on it. But I must also say that they accept this. Or at least they have no objections to it. They follow their own policy, the political aspect is what interests them. The things that are crucial for us, such as fidelity to the Pope as guardian of Tradition, don’t seem to interest them much.
The fact remains that you are still in the position of ‘unofficial’ bishop, not recognized as a bishop by the government apparatus. Is something being worked out for you?
There is no other ‘official’ bishop approved by the government in Lanzhou. The government has been telling me for some time that soon they will recognize me as bishop of the diocese, but no specific date for this has yet been set.
If it happens do you fear there will be misunderstandings and bad feelings in the Church community?
We are all united on this. All share the same thought. Everybody sees that recognition by the government does not contradict and does not hinder communion with the Pope and the Universal Church.
At that point you should have contact with the Patriotic Association, the inspection body set up by the regime. What shape would you give to relations with the PA?
Currently the head of the PA is still a layman. In future that role could be taken by one of the priests of the diocese, so as to handle everything in friendly fashion.
What would you say to the Pope to clarify the situation in China?
It’s a moment of confusion. It can’t continue like this. It would be useful to bear in mind two things for the future. First, we want to be in communion with the Pope, we want to be one heart with him. And then that clarity is needed in indicating what is wrong and must be corrected, among the anomalies of the circumstances in which we live. But in doing so, we must never lose contact. The channels that serve to keep us talking must be kept open. Because there are situations that can be solved only by debate.
You might well meet the Pope soon, when you’re summoned to Rome for the Synod of Bishops.
I’d be happy. But I don’t think I’ll mange to come... |
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2013-10-09 15:38:45 发表 |
信德不能妥协，因此教会至今仍是殉道者的教会
时间：2013-04-07 来源： 梵蒂冈电台作者
教宗方济各4月6日在圣玛尔大之家的小堂主持了复活八日庆期第七天的弥撒。阿根廷一个家庭，以及圣卡米洛修女会和善牧修女会的一些修女参加了礼仪。教宗在弥撒中表示：基督徒应该勇敢见证信德的完整性。
教宗在简短的弥撒讲道中，讲解了复活八日庆期第七天的弥撒读经和福音。读经记载了圣伯多禄和圣若望不畏恐吓，在犹太首领面前勇敢见证信仰；而福音则讲述了复活的耶稣责斥那些不相信见证他复活的人。
教宗方济各问道：“我们的信德如何？坚固吗？或者有时候有点薄弱呢？”当困难来临时，“我们是否像圣伯多禄一样勇敢，或者有些迟疑不定呢？”教宗说，伯多禄不掩盖信仰，也没有妥协让步，“因为信德是不容讨价还价的”。然而“在天主子民的历史中，常常有削减信德的诱惑”、“随大流”的诱惑，以及“不要过于刚直”的诱惑。教宗强调说“当我们开始削减信德时，为信德讨价还价时，在某种程度上我们是在向出高价者出卖信仰，我们也开始走上了叛教的道路，背叛上主的道路”。
教宗进一步指出：“圣伯多禄和圣若望的榜样给了我们力量，但是在教会历史中有许多的殉道者，直至今日也是如此，“我们并不需要到罗马的地下墓穴或罗马斗兽场去寻找殉道者，因为殉道者此刻还活着，在许多国家都有。教宗方济各说，基督徒因信仰的缘故遭受迫害。一些国家不允许信徒佩戴十字架，若有人这么做会受到惩罚。在二十一世纪的今天，我们的教会仍然是一个殉道者的教会”，仍然属于那些像圣伯多禄和圣若望一样宣称“我们不得不说我们所见所闻”的人们。教宗继续说，是这些殉道者“给了我们力量”，让我们用生命见证“我们所领受的信仰，这信仰是上主赐给祂所有子民的礼物”。
教宗明确指出：“我们不能凭自己做这事，因为这是一个恩宠，信德的恩宠。我们应该每日呼求上主说：‘主啊，求祢保护我的信德，让它成长，愿我的信德坚固、勇敢，并在我必须如同圣伯多禄和圣若望一样公开信德时帮助我，赐我勇气’”。
教宗最后说，在今天，美好的祈祷词或许是这样的：愿上主帮助我们守护信德，使它成长，让我们成为有信德的人。
教宗说，伯多禄不掩盖信仰，也没有妥协让步，“因为信德是不容讨价还价的”。然而“在天主子民的历史中，常常有削减信德的诱惑”、“随大流”的诱惑，以及“不要过于刚直”的诱惑。教宗强调说“当我们开始削减信德时，为信德讨价还价时，在某种程度上我们是在向出高价者出卖信仰，我们也开始走上了叛教的道路，背叛上主的道路”。
一一爱国会主教神父们坚持走独立自办自办教会的道路是不是叛教的道路，是不是背叛上主的道路？他们屈从于政府对我圣教信仰和教律的干涉！是不是妥协让步？本笃十六教宗给中国教会的牧函训导的非常清楚：当政权不恰当的干涉我们的信仰和教律时，我们不能就此屈从！我们本着教宗不能错误的训导决不屈从妥协，坚决抵制爱国会，首先我们绝不参加一个裂教组织，不接受独立自主自办教会这个背教原则！
看来爱国会主教神父们和某些大师们的希望落空了。因为方济各教宗说：伯多禄不掩盖信仰，也没有妥协让步，“因为信德是不容讨价还价的”。教宗说'不要过于刚直'是诱惑，是魔鬼的诱惑！我们不要陷于魔鬼的'不要过于刚直'的诱惑！
不要太较真，偏激，极端常是爱国会主教神父修女信徒们及那些妥协分子对坚持完整信德的地下教会的批评！实则是为自己妥协让步不敢坚持信仰的无耻说词！
爱国会主教神父们，那些声称教宗说让教会公开化的妥协之士好好听听教宗方济各的话，也再仔细重读本笃十六教宗给中国教会的牧函中不屈从的呼吁！
打开心扉，不要再封闭自己，有耳听的，听吧！ |
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| 本站网友 睁开眼吧 |
2013-10-09 15:35:43 发表 |
教宗方济各表示：聆听天主和跟随耶稣的道路使我们自由和幸福
时间：2013-04-12 来源： 梵蒂冈电台
教宗方济各4月11日清晨在梵蒂冈圣玛尔大之家的小堂举行弥撒，梵蒂冈官方报《罗马观察报》的一些职员参与了弥撒圣祭。教宗在讲道中指出，聆听天主使我们自由，赐予我们“俗世建议”不能保证的幸福。
教宗说：“服从天主就是聆听天主，以开放的心走天主给我们指引的道路。服从天主就是聆听天主，它使我们自由”。服从天主意味着聆听祂的声音，就如伯多禄那样，向法利塞人和经师说：“我做耶稣叫我做的事，而不是做你们叫我做的事”。教宗方济各继续说：“在我们的生活中，我们也会听到一些不是来自耶稣、来自天主的事。有时我们的软弱会把我们带向另外一条道路，这条路有两个方向，有“双重生活”：一个是耶稣所说的， 另一个是世俗指引我们的道路”。教宗说：“在我们聆听耶稣时会发生什么事呢？有时那些建议我们走世俗道路的人会“羞恼成怒”，致使走耶稣指导的道路的人遭到迫害。但仍有很多人用自己的生命做见证，愿意服从天主，沿着耶稣指给他们的路走。
教宗在弥撒讲道中解释说，教会在今天礼仪中勉励我们要达到的目标：就是“走耶稣指引的路”。这也就是说，不要听取世俗、罪过的建议，不向使我们远离天主的建议让步。这些不能使我们幸福”。在圣神的帮助下，我们走耶稣指引的路，并服从天主。教宗说：“正是圣神给我们力量，走耶稣指引的道路”。为此，我们必须勇敢的恳求“勇敢的恩宠”，大胆地说：“天主，我是个罪人，有时会听从世俗的事，可是我愿意服从祢，愿意走祢的道路”。让我们祈求始终走耶稣指引的道路的恩宠。教宗最后说：“我们不这样做时，我们恳求宽恕：“上主会宽恕我们的，因为祂是那么的慈善宽仁。
爱国会主教神父修女教友们看到没有？反思没有？
你们面对政府强制要求教会背弃教义而独立自主自办教会，是否像伯多禄和若望那样回答：听天主的命应胜过听人的命。
你们还信教宗是基督在世代表么？该按照基督在世代表教宗的话去做，向共产党说：“我做耶稣叫我做的事，而不是做你们叫我做的事”。
爱国会主教神父们独立自主自办教会是做谁叫做的事呢？他们服从的是谁呢？爱国会主教说独立自办的道路是天主旨意，是天主指示的道路，是圣神训诲启迪的！他们“祝圣”时根据圣经伯多禄前书二章十三节宣誓服从政权和宪法，“我们根据伯多禄宗徒的训示，为主的缘故服从人立的一切制度”。
在中国人立的制度就是共产党的制度，共产党人对宗教立的制度就是独立自主自办教会，民主办教，自选自圣主教！
所以爱国会主教们为了主的缘故服从人立的一切制度而走独立自主自办教会道路！
他们说圣经让他们独立自办的！
基督说：撒旦，去吧！经上伯多禄还说：听天主的命应胜过听人的命！
教宗说：“我做耶稣叫我做的事，而不是做你们叫我做的事”。 |
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| 本站网友 睁开眼吧 |
2013-10-09 15:11:21 发表 |
本笃十六教宗训导：爱国会不合教义！当政权不恰当的干涉我们的信仰和教律时，我们不能就此屈从！
方济各教宗训导：信德不能妥协，信德不能讨价还价！
教宗说伯多禄和若望宗徒对大司祭说：我们做耶稣让我们做的事，不做你们要我们做的事！
参加爱国会独立自主自办教会是谁让你们做的？谁让你们参加爱国会的？谁要求你们独立自主自办教会的？是天主，教宗？还是……
难怪主耶稣说：人子回来的时候还能在世上找到信德么？
爱国会的和尚们！ |
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2013-10-09 12:52:42 发表 |
本站网友 匿名 2013-10-09 12:14:13 发表 [18 楼]
去年上海马公开辞退在爱国会的职务，导致他至今未能行使主教职，事件发生后教廷曾高调挺马。由教廷任命的天水助理主教赵在上个月中旬就已公开当选爱国会主任了，到现在也没有听到教廷说了什么。如教廷不说什么，可不可以看作是教廷的一种默认姿态？如果是，中梵建交就快了。不是说爱国会是中梵建交的障碍吗？现在障碍没有了，可以建交了。俺们终于可以兴奋地喊出：双赢啦！
本站网友 义峰 2013-10-09 09:21:03 发表 [17 楼]
我曾经担心过赵建章会一时糊涂那样做，现在看来，他还不糊涂。只要不糊涂，是不会那样做的。原因如下：
从中梵关系走向看，纯粹的地下教会走向没落已不可挽回。教廷要在中国谋求利益，只能在公开教会中着手。但公开教会中的人，要想得到位置与利益，有些事是不能做的。所以虽然多数公开主教都得到教廷委任，但真正私圣的，只有八大前的温州朱维芳与八大后的邯郸孙继根。
朱维芳年事已高，早不在乎什么更高的地位，一心只求以主教身份去见天主。但私圣以后，行不了权，心愿未了。所以在八大上，积极踊跃，表决会团领导人时，站立举手，以自己的行动表达了孝顺之意，结果在八大后得到会团准许就职，这也是会团新班子不跟老人家一般见识的恩典。
孙继根是吃了哑巴亏。他原是邯郸杨派，陈派一直看他不顺。陈死后杨祥泰对原陈派一直瞧不上。一批陈派的神职如彭鉴道（彭建民）假意归顺，怂恿杨祥泰、孙继根私圣，结果，到现在行不了权。因为孙与的不同，年轻，不能开这个例子。可以预见，如果孙要行权就职，估计没个好好的表现是不行的，而这笔帐，不管怎样也总是给他记下了。还有个例子，凤翔李会元，教廷委任后私选，到现在没听见李镜峰为他私圣的说法，这恐怕也是看见了孙的例子，不敢妄动。
因此，赵建章如果私圣，就从一个甘肃省的天主教领导人一下子成为可能一世行不了权的地下主教。换作你，是再等一下祝圣了行权呢，还是放弃已有的身份和可望得到的更高的位置呢
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楼上两位辛苦了，呵呵！
请教几个问题：
1 中华人民共和国 《宪法》关于宗教信仰自由的宗教和自由如何理解？
2 天主教教义在先，还是中华人民共和国 《宪法》在先？
3 中华人民共和国 的爱国会是个政府机构还是个宗教团体？
4 中华人民共和国 《宪法》有明确确认凡属 “中国人”可以自由参加或者不参加社团的自由！目前国内发生的若干起事情是否已经可以确认为违宪行为？
宗教信仰是临在于人心灵深处的，不是表面展现出来的就一定是真实的！比如当今各位正在感受的“假”“大”“空”相信两位也是这些事物的受益者！呵呵！
是的，中国天主教中正是很多机会主义投机分子将教会搞成现在的样子！但是，真正的天主教教徒只是需求天主给予心灵的籍慰，不是功名利禄！他们在日常工作中依然是好的国民，并不比那些已经参加所谓号称爱国的组织和社团的伪爱国分子爱国！
想想，他们可以假天主教的皮混迹于号称名号为爱国会的组织！就不会假以爱国会的名义干伤天害理的事情！
上海的马主教，只是行使了宪法赋予的国民权，堂堂正正的说明不违心的背虎皮，就把成天虚伪惯了的人吓得恐惧不堪！
什么撤销任命 限制行动！
呵呵！懂点常识好不好？有没有这样的权利？
你们直接开除马主教中国天主教的教籍算了！不过瘾，再来个绝罚！呵呵！多美好的事情！
最后奉劝那些把主教牧权看做国家干部的那些个“人”“盗亦有道”堂堂正正追求你真真需求的东西吧！不需要战术战略！
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-09 12:14:13 发表 |
| 去年上海马公开辞退在爱国会的职务，导致他至今未能行使主教职，事件发生后教廷曾高调挺马。由教廷任命的天水助理主教赵在上个月中旬就已公开当选爱国会主任了，到现在也没有听到教廷说了什么。如教廷不说什么，可不可以看作是教廷的一种默认姿态？如果是，中梵建交就快了。不是说爱国会是中梵建交的障碍吗？现在障碍没有了，可以建交了。俺们终于可以兴奋地喊出：双赢啦！ |
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| 本站网友 义峰 |
2013-10-09 09:21:03 发表 |
我曾经担心过赵建章会一时糊涂那样做，现在看来，他还不糊涂。只要不糊涂，是不会那样做的。原因如下：
从中梵关系走向看，纯粹的地下教会走向没落已不可挽回。教廷要在中国谋求利益，只能在公开教会中着手。但公开教会中的人，要想得到位置与利益，有些事是不能做的。所以虽然多数公开主教都得到教廷委任，但真正私圣的，只有八大前的温州朱维芳与八大后的邯郸孙继根。
朱维芳年事已高，早不在乎什么更高的地位，一心只求以主教身份去见天主。但私圣以后，行不了权，心愿未了。所以在八大上，积极踊跃，表决会团领导人时，站立举手，以自己的行动表达了孝顺之意，结果在八大后得到会团准许就职，这也是会团新班子不跟老人家一般见识的恩典。
孙继根是吃了哑巴亏。他原是邯郸杨派，陈派一直看他不顺。陈死后杨祥泰对原陈派一直瞧不上。一批陈派的神职如彭鉴道（彭建民）假意归顺，怂恿杨祥泰、孙继根私圣，结果，到现在行不了权。因为孙与的不同，年轻，不能开这个例子。可以预见，如果孙要行权就职，估计没个好好的表现是不行的，而这笔帐，不管怎样也总是给他记下了。还有个例子，凤翔李会元，教廷委任后私选，到现在没听见李镜峰为他私圣的说法，这恐怕也是看见了孙的例子，不敢妄动。
因此，赵建章如果私圣，就从一个甘肃省的天主教领导人一下子成为可能一世行不了权的地下主教。换作你，是再等一下祝圣了行权呢，还是放弃已有的身份和可望得到的更高的位置呢 |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-08 18:34:11 发表 |
赵建章神父怎么不找一位主教先秘密祝圣了，然后就职不就完啦吗| 其实王若望大可不必要求主礼祝圣赵建章为助理主教。处于当今环境只要赵建章被合法主教祝圣为主教就可以了。这样天水教区就能够正常的运作，逐步迈向合一那将是极大欢喜。 |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-08 17:32:35 发表 |
其实王若望大可不必要求主礼祝圣赵建章为助理主教。处于当今环境只要赵建章被合法主教祝圣为主教就可以了。这样天水教区就能够正常的运作，逐步迈向合一那将是极大欢喜。原文由 义峰 于 2013-10-08 12:44:53 发表:
罗马教廷去年委任地下的王若望为天水主教，之前经自选当选天水正权主教的赵建章为助理主教（赵已当选多年）。地方上曾想过以所谓上海模式祝圣赵，即赵在公开是正权，至于教廷的委任就视而不见。但王若望提出自己是正权，赵若祝圣必须由其主礼，且只能是祝圣为助理。因此拖到现在。之前我也曾两次提醒过相关朋友，要防止赵建章为早日正位而仿效温州朱维芳和邯郸孙继根，私下祝圣。但从现在他能顺利当省爱国会主任看，此种风险应该不大了。赵毕竟是明事理的人，对当前形势也看得还算清楚。 |
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| 本站网友 义峰 |
2013-10-08 12:44:53 发表 |
| 罗马教廷去年委任地下的王若望为天水主教，之前经自选当选天水正权主教的赵建章为助理主教（赵已当选多年）。地方上曾想过以所谓上海模式祝圣赵，即赵在公开是正权，至于教廷的委任就视而不见。但王若望提出自己是正权，赵若祝圣必须由其主礼，且只能是祝圣为助理。因此拖到现在。之前我也曾两次提醒过相关朋友，要防止赵建章为早日正位而仿效温州朱维芳和邯郸孙继根，私下祝圣。但从现在他能顺利当省爱国会主任看，此种风险应该不大了。赵毕竟是明事理的人，对当前形势也看得还算清楚。 |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 23:07:14 发表 |
韩总早已用共祭表达了，更何况杨宗学和邱学山还是兰州仅有的两个副主教！这不明摆着吗？ |
韩早被招安了！不过还得打着旗号安抚地下信徒嘛！ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 23:03:15 发表 |
当选？谁选的？神父们？修女儿们？教友儿们？民主办教！
谎言的魔鬼，撒旦的子孙！ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 23:02:02 发表 |
| 这么芝麻大的官也有意义吗？不和罗马教廷共融，就是我们教友不喜欢的人，也是天主所反对的人！希望赵主教等人内心一定和天主共融啊，否则没有意义啊！ |
赵主教？赵主任是主教啊！
共产党的主教？妈呀，爱国会的啊！
看来圣经和教宗的牧函是废纸，扔厕所吧！ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 22:59:47 发表 |
引领甘肃天主教沿着与社会主义社会相适应的正确道路不断前行.
正确道路！老正确了，绝对正确！伟大！光明！正确！
有错误道路么？
魔鬼的道路也正确啊，为魔鬼来说！ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 22:57:32 发表 |
| 看看这群魔鬼眉飞色舞啊! |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 22:28:07 发表 |
韩总早已用共祭表达了，更何况杨宗学和邱学山还是兰州仅有的两个副主教！这不明摆着吗？ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 21:42:17 发表 |
| 不能光让宗教界参加爱国会，凡有组织的都应参加爱国会。这样就能表现95%的人都是爱国的。 |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 20:42:18 发表 |
| 哎呀！上面的楼主说的太好了。 |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 17:59:01 发表 |
| 教友们的心多在痛了！ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 16:48:07 发表 |
可爱的cctv海采“爱国是什么”“不爱国是什么”。有人回答：造谣就是不爱国。又有人曰：贪污就是不爱国。
造谣是爱国还是不爱国，不能一概而论，关键要看是谁在造谣。比如秦火火造谣，那肯定就是不爱国。秦火火造了谁的谣呢？据央视新闻出现的一个画面可知，是造了“爱国将领”戴旭、“爱国学者”孔庆东之流的谣。偶们不会忘记：戴旭就是一个造谣者，他曾经制造了M国对中国发动了生化战争的战争谣言。孔庆东也是一个造谣者，他曾经制造了某地发生了反革命政变的政治谣言。但这几个人却被央视定性为“爱国者”，可见，造谣也不见得就是不爱国，关键要看是谁在造，看造的是什么谣。有的人造谣，恰恰就是很爱国的表现有一种造谣就叫做爱国，有一种爱国就叫做造谣。至于央视自身，也被老百姓认为是一个经常造谣的媒体，但你能说它不爱国吗？当然不能。
再说贪污。贪污是不爱国还是爱国呢？也不能一概而论。像国民党的四大家族贪污，那就是不爱国，就是卖国，肯定的。但像今天的裸官——不贪污如何做得了裸官？不贪污何必做裸官？——你就不能说他们不爱国。他们如果都不爱国了，又何苦挖空心思教育别人去爱国？
同样的道理，反腐败有时候是爱国，有时候就是不爱国。反某些人的腐败是爱国，反另外一些人的腐败就可能不是爱国。比如，反国民党四大家族的腐败当然就是爱国，但若是在今天老百姓随意反腐败，就有可能被敌对势力利用。那就不仅仅是不爱国的问题，而是害国，卖国的问题了。张宏良说，反腐败是美帝搞垮中国的阴谋。可见，反腐败是不能随便反的，一不小心咱就可能上了美帝的当了。
再说提倡民主宪政，到底是爱国还是不爱国呢？这也必须看是谁在提倡，是什么时候在提倡。当年的毛泽东们提倡民主宪政，毫无疑问是爱国；今天的贺卫方们提倡民主宪政，就被很多人骂为汉奸了。汉奸，就是卖国贼。最近有不少人（其中也有一些高官）出来声讨民主宪政普世价值，他们无疑是爱国者，那普世派就必定是卖国贼了。
比爱国或不爱国更关键的一个问题是：国，指的是什么？
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 13:42:54 发表 |
| 兰州教区韩志海主教对于此事怎么看？ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 11:24:54 发表 |
| 这么芝麻大的官也有意义吗？不和罗马教廷共融，就是我们教友不喜欢的人，也是天主所反对的人！希望赵主教等人内心一定和天主共融啊，否则没有意义啊！ |
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| 本站网友 匿名 |
2013-10-07 09:02:39 发表 |
天主教界将与全省各族各界人民一道，在省委、省政府的正确领导下，
--------“在省委，省政府的正确领导下”太正确了，你们这些神职们好好的干吧，你们把教会的教义放在一边，毫无顾忌地践踏教会法律，省委，省政府会帮你得救的
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