梵蒂冈城（亚洲新闻）- 一张教宗面带笑容的照片，一副豪言壮志的标题（一枢机表示，教宗方济格认为中国是个伟大的国家）：这就是中共党媒「人民日报」的分支机构，环球时报在首页发表的文章。这也许是中国媒体历史上第一次全方面采访一位枢机主教，甚至是作为国务卿的伯多禄•帕罗林（Pietro Parolin）枢机。
该文章编者解释说，这是继「闽东教区复活节共祭」和「梵蒂冈出席世界园艺博览会」后，「中梵关系良好发展的又一标志」。
该采访由稀士（Francesco Sisci）和张羽主持。稀士三年前曾就中国问题采访教宗方济各，访谈涉及多方面，唯独没有教会问题。然而这次，帕罗林枢机谈到关于中国教会所面临的一些问题以及中梵协议的深层意义，他说，「这是为了整个中国天主教团体的利益，对那些曾经遭受过煎熬，目前仍然忍受着的人们」，我希望如兄弟般的拥抱他们」。
第一个问题围绕着如何展开中梵对话。圣座国务卿指出，「彼此的信任感正逐步提升」，他强调对话一直按照教宗方济各的指导方针进行并表示，「双方对话的目的不在于讨论彼此的意识形态」，相反地，「我们希望找到实际的方法，解决並改善真实的教徒生活，尤其是那些渴望为国家作积极贡献并平安度信仰生活的人」。
第二个问题是关于对话的「阻力」。记者提到教会内部的反对人士。在回答问题时，帕罗林枢机指出，有批判声音很正常，他可能出现在教会内部，或在中国，或在其他地方。他同时也知道，关于协议，批判声最强（和最厉害）的地方是中国内部，尤其是从宗教局和统战部，他们发起了一场对主教、神父和宗教场所监控的运动，哪怕是中梵有了协议（这点也从他们的报道中可看出）。
帕罗林枢机指出，「对那些表达反对意见的人，需要理解、重视和尊重，这很人性，也很基督徒...许多问题还需要处理，我们有愿景和决心来面对。为的还是找到一个被各方尊重、接纳且持久的解决方案」。
红衣主教还指出了其他的反对声音：「那些持有偏见和希望保持以往地缘政治稳定的人」。对于记者来说，这部分更有意思，也代表了采访内容的核心。枢机主教说：「教宗方济各对事态发展了如指掌，包括近期的一系列问题。双方谈判的重心围绕在牧灵方面：他对中国人民十分尊重并充满信心，他们有着上千年的文化底蕴，也深切渴望得到同等真心和积极的回报」。
当被问及第七个问题时，帕罗林枢机强调说，「教宗方济各不仅视中国为大国，同时也深知它拥有着富饶的文化，长久的历史和伟大的智慧。如今的中国已是大家的关注对象，尤其是青年」。他希望中国「不要害怕与更广阔的世界进行对话」，并能够「放下包袱，建立一个更安全、更富强的社会」。
枢机主教的话语使人想起了教宗方济各2014年写给习近平的信，其中教宗表达了对中国和多极化世界的良好愿景，并以由唯一一个霸权统治的世界比喻结尾。在中美谈判失败后的几小时，发布帕罗林枢机主教的采访或许并不是巧合，这代表两种不同看待国际经济的风格和方式。
就教会而言，有必要分清「文化融合」与「中国化」间的区别。关于「文化融合」的议题，帕罗林以中国明末耶稣会传教士利玛窦（Matteo Ricci）为例，是根据每个民族及其文化去向他们介绍信仰，同时，「也维护了该民族的纯正性和完整性」。而宗教「中国化」- 这在采访中并未被提及 – 则是中共发起的运动，其目的在于将宗教至于中国文化之下并使其沦为中共的工具。圣座国务卿期望中国领导阶层「切勿破坏各宗教的根本和教义」，并希望「文化融合」和「中国化」能够通过对话「相辅相成」。他还强调道，「中国天主教徒才应负起这份重担，（而不是中共或统战部）」。
第四和第五个问题主要关于中国和梵蒂冈之间可开展的合作领域。枢机主教提出，这包括「和平，对抗贫困，环境和气候变化，移民，科技和经济发展方式和社会人类发展」，他还指出，对于圣座而言，首当其冲的是保障「人类尊严的重心，即真实承认其根本权力，包括与每个人息息相关的宗教自由权和共同利益」。
在问及给予「政治领导人」一些「建议」时，枢机主教请求他们「不要担心开拓视野」并能够走出「眼前利益」，如此才能无条件的找到广阔且持久的解决办法。与此同时，也能为一个更加人性化，更加公正和更加有价值的未来，作出贡献」。
关于倒数第二个问题，即第六个问题，帕罗林枢机被问及「这些年来，与中方代表谈判中，印象最深刻和最美的回忆」。红衣主教说：「最美好的时刻要数那些我们在一起如同家人和朋友的时光，因为我们在一起，彼此之间增加了了解，除去我们之间的差别，我们得以人性化的互相分享」。
枢机主教总结说：「有一些事情本身意义重大，但对营造谈判良好的气氛，不无意义」。
（中文版本由亚洲新闻责任编辑翻译）
Pope Francis sees China as gcountry, says cardinalreat
Source:Global Times Published: 2019/5/12 23:53:40
Pope Francis celebrates a priesthood ordination and mass in St Peter's Basilica at the Vatican on Sunday. Photo: AFP
Editor's Note: As a sign of positive developments in China-Vatican relations, the recent Easter celebrations were peaceful in China and the presence of the Vatican representation at the Horticultural International Exhibition in Beijing attracted positive attention. Cardinal Pietro Parolin(Parolin), Vatican Secretary of State, granted an exclusive interview to the Global Times (GT) special correspondent Francesco Sisci and staff reporter Zhang Yu. He talked about the latest progress of the provisional agreement between China and the Holy See, his memories of negotiating with Chinese representatives, and his take on China's sinicization of religions in recent years.
GT: The agreement between the Holy See and the People's Republic of China has been signed. The dialogue is still ongoing. How is it proceeding now? How often do the two sides meet? Can you give us some details about it?Parolin: Yes, on September 22, 2018 we signed a provisional agreement on the nomination of bishops in China. The two sides are well aware that such an act constitutes the point of arrival of a long journey, but it is above all a starting point. There is confidence that a new phase of greater cooperation can now be opened for the good of the Chinese Catholic community and the harmony of the whole society. The channels of communication are working well. There are elements which demonstrate an increased trust between the two sides. We are inaugurating a method which appears positive and which will still have to be developed over time, but which, for now, gives us hope that we can gradually arrive at concrete results. We have to journey together, because only in this way will we be able to heal the wounds and misunderstandings of the past in order to show the world that even starting from positions that are far apart, we can reach fruitful agreements. I would like to highlight an aspect which is particularly close to the heart of Pope Francis: That is, the true nature of dialogue. In dialogue, neither of the two sides gives up its own identity or what is essential for carrying out its own task. China and the Holy See are not discussing theories about their respective systems nor do they want to reopen questions which by now belong to history. Instead we are looking for practical solutions which concern the lives of real people who desire to practice their faith peacefully and offer a positive contribution to their own country.
GT: There is some opposition to the Vatican's dialogue with the Chinese government. What is your take on the opposition and what would you say to the opponents within the Church?Parolin: As generally happens in complex issues and when one faces problems of great importance, also in Sino-Vatican relations, it is usual to compare different positions and likewise propose different solutions, according to the initial points of view and the prevailing concerns. Therefore, there should not be a surprise if there is criticism, which can arise either in the church or in China or from elsewhere, of an opening which can appear unprecedented after such a long period of confrontation. Indeed, it seems to me human and Christian to show understanding, attention and respect for those who express such criticism. Of course, not all problems have been resolved. Many questions still need to be addressed and we are facing them with willingness and determination. I am well aware that no one has it completely worked out (or, indeed, can provide a magic formula!), but I can also say that we are committed to finding enduring solutions, which are acceptable to, and respectful of all concerned. Obviously, criticisms which come from prejudiced positions and which seem to seek to preserve old geopolitical balances are another matter. For Pope Francis - who is well aware of all that has happened even in the recent past - the main interest in the ongoing dialogue is on the pastoral level: he is making a great act of trust and respect for the Chinese people and their culture of millennia, with the well-founded hope of receiving an equally sincere and positive response. The truly important point is that the dialogue should be able to progressively build a wider consensus by bearing abundant fruits. A first and two-fold fruit, to observe carefully, is what has already taken place: on the one hand, we are beginning to overcome
reciprocal condemnations, we know each other better, we listen to each other, we understand the needs of those involved in the dialogue in a better way. On the other hand, the prospect opens up that two ancient, great and sophisticated international entities - like China and the Apostolic See - may become ever more aware of a common responsibility for the grave problems of our time. Global responses have to correspond to global challenges. Catholicism by its nature is a global reality, able to promote in an original way the search for meaning and happiness, to bolster the value of belonging to a specific culture and at the same time experience universal fraternity. As a Chinese bishop recently pointed out, the Catholic communities in China today are asking to be fully integrated into universal communion, bringing to the Church the gift of being Chinese.
GT: Inculturation has always been important for the Catholic Church when it preaches the Gospel. Now China is carrying out "sinicization" of religions. What is your take on inculturation and "sinicization"?Parolin: Inculturation is an essential conInculturation is an essential condition for a sound proclamation of the Gospel which, in order to bear fruit, requires, on the one hand, safeguarding its authentic purity and integrity and, on the other, presenting it according to the particular experience of each people and culture. The fruitful experience of Matteo Ricci is an outstanding witness of this: he knew how to make himself authentically Chinese in order to promote the values of human friendship and Christian love. For the future, it will certainly be important to deepen this theme, especially the relationship between "inculturation" and "sinicization," keeping in mind how the Chinese leadership has been able to reiterate their willingness not to undermine the nature and the doctrine of each religion. These two terms, "inculturation" and "sinicization," refer to each other without confusion and without opposition: in some ways, they can be complementary and can open avenues for dialogue on the religious and cultural level. Finally, I would say that the principal actors in this commitment are Chinese Catholics, called to live reconciliation in order to be authentically Chinese and fully Catholic.
GT: The Vatican (Holy See) has played a positive role in helping China get recognition for its efforts to crack down on organ trafficking. Are there other areas in which the two sides can work together?Parolin: As I pointed out before, today many global challenges exist which need to be faced with a spirit of positive cooperation. I am thinking in particular of the great issues of peace, the fight against poverty, environmental and climatic emergencies, migration, the ethics of scientific development and the economic and social progress of peoples. It is of primary importance for the Holy See that in all these areas the dignity of the human person be placed at the center, beginning with the real recognition of his or her fundamental rights, among which is the right to religious freedom, and the common good, which is the good of each and everyone. These are very broad horizons which today more than ever need a shared commitment on the part of everyone: believers and non-believers. The Holy See will continue to do its part within the international community and is open to every initiative which promotes the common good.
GT: It is a complicated time for the whole world and in particular for some countries. What could you say to political leaders personally, as a religious man?Parolin: Today, more than in the past, political leaders are called to enormous responsibilities. What happens on the local level almost immediately has repercussions on the global level. We are all interconnected, so the words and decisions of a few persons influence the lives and way of thinking of many. As a man of faith and as a priest, I would like to invite those who have direct political responsibilities to keep in mind this power of influence over people, a power which can be vertiginous. I would like to say that even in the most difficult situations and faced with the most complex decisions they should not be afraid to lift their gaze, beyond immediate success, to seek lasting and far-reaching solutions without preconditions which can contribute to building a more humane, more just and more worthy future for everyone. In this regard, I would like to highlight the message of Pope Francis for the celebration of the 52nd World Day of Peace on January 1, 2019, entitled: "Good politics at the service of peace," which offers valuable indications to all those who have political responsibilities.
GT: You have dealt with Chinese representatives for many years. What is the most powerful memory of that time? And the most beautiful one?Parolin: I have clear and fond memories of the time when, as Undersecretary for Relations with States, I had dealings with the Chinese representatives and I thank the Lord for allowing me to have that rich experience. There was, of course, no shortage of concerns and fears. On not a few occasions, it seemed to me that we would never make progress and that everything would be brought to a halt. The will to move forward prevailed on both sides, however, and with patience and determination we sought to overcome the obstacles along the way. This particular detail has remained clearly impressed on my memory. The most poignant times were those when we spent moments of familiarity and friendship together, allowing us to get to know one other and to appreciate each other more and, in the end, to share the humanity that unites us beyond the differences that exist between us. These are situations that have a profound value in themselves, but which were also useful in creating a more favorable atmosphere during the negotiations. I remember, in particular, a whole day spent in Assisi with the Chinese delegation one Sunday in spring: the fascination of the places of Saint Francis and the climate that was created between us opened my heart to a great hope, which kept me going in all the following years and that still encourages me. We have seen the first fruits of it and, with God's grace, we will see yet more, for the benefit of the entire Chinese Catholic community, which I embrace fraternally - above all those who have suffered most and continue to suffer - and of the entire population of that country, to which I sincerely extend every good wish.
GT: Your Eminence, do you have a particular message for the Chinese people and its leaders?Parolin: I would like to send to the leaders, but also to all the people of China, the greetings, best wishes and prayers of Pope Francis. The Holy Father asks Catholics in particular to undertake with courage the path of unity, reconciliation and a renewed proclamation of the Gospel. He sees China not only as a great country but also as a great culture, rich in history and wisdom. Today China has come to arouse great attention and interest everywhere, especially among young people. The Holy See hopes that China will not be afraid to enter into dialogue with the wider world and that the world's nations will give credit to the profound aspirations of the Chinese people. In this way, with everyone working together, I am sure that we will be able to overcome mistrust and build a more secure and prosperous world. In the words of Pope Francis, we would say that only by being united can we overcome the globalization of indifference, working as creative artisans of peace and resolute promoters of fraternity.
帕罗林枢机：“我们与中国正在开创一种积极的方法”
在接受中国《环球时报》专访中，帕罗林枢机希望与中国的对话“能逐渐取得具体的成果”。
（梵蒂冈新闻网）“今年在全中国平和地举行了复活节礼仪，而且梵蒂冈代表团参加了北京世界园艺博览会，这都是在中梵关系上积极发展的标记”，圣座国务卿帕罗林枢机在接受《环球时报》专访中作了上述表示。这篇访谈于5月12日在该报英文版网站上刊登，记者是西西（Francesco Sisci）和张玉（Zhang Yu，音译）。
帕罗林枢机首先谈到在签署主教任命临时协议后中梵关系的进展，指出：“双方清楚意识到，这项协议是一段漫长旅途所取得的成果，但更是一个起点。为了中国天主教团体的益处及整个社会的和谐，我们现在能够凭著信任开启更大合作的新阶段。沟通的渠道正在发挥作用，有些因素表明双方间的信任有所增长。”
枢机表示，“我们正在开创一种积极的方法，但它肯定还要加以完善，我们希望能逐渐取得具体的成果”。“我们必须一起行走，只有这样才能治愈过去的创伤和互不理解，向世界表明，即使彼此的立场相距甚远，也能达成富有成效的协议。我愿重申教宗方济各很重视的一个观点，即对话的真正性质。在对话中，双方的任何一方都不应放弃自己的身份认同和自身工作的本质”。
“中国和圣座不在讨论各自体制的理论，也无意重提已经属于历史的问题。相反地，我们正在为具体的人的生活寻求实际的解决方案，他们渴望安稳地度自己的信仰生活，并为自己的国家作出积极的贡献。”
谈到教会内部反对临时性协议的声音，帕罗林枢机回答说，“在中梵关系上以各自的观点和挂虑持有不同的立场且提出不同的方案，是件正常的事。因此，对于在中国和其它地区的教会内部出现的批评，不必感到惊奇，这些批评是针对如此长期交涉后所出现的前所未有的开放空间”。
“当然，不是所有问题都得到了解决！许多问题还应予以面对，我们本著善意和决心正在进行努力。我清楚意识到，任何人在此都没有全盘的解决方案（或万能指挥棒）！但我也可以说，我们正在设法寻求持久和各方都能接纳及受到尊重的解决方案”。
枢机也谈到一些出自偏见立场的批评，它们只想维持旧的地缘政治平衡。他说：“教宗方济各充分了解过去和最近发生的事，对他而言，进行对话的主要意义是牧灵上的。他正在履行一项伟大的行动，信赖和尊重中国人民及其数千年的文化，期望得到同样真诚和积极的回应。”
帕罗林枢机接著列举了中梵对话的成果，指出双方开始超越彼此的指责，而且彼此之间更加了解，更能聆听对方、了解对方的需求。此外，中国和圣座这两个如此古老的国际实体越来越意识到对当今时代的严重问题负有共同责任。
对全球性的挑战应作出全球性的回应，而天主教信仰因其本质是一种全球性的现实，所寻求的是人类的意义和幸福。枢机提到一位中国主教最近强调，在中国的天主教团体如今要求完全被接纳而进入普世的共融中，将作为中国人的恩典带给教会。
枢机回顾了中梵谈判的漫长路程，说明并非没有忧虑和担心。“在不少情况中，我觉得我们不会取得任何进展，一切将会中断。但双方向前行走的意愿得胜，我们以耐心和决心努力克服行程中的阻碍”。枢机也谈到双方一起度过的美好时刻，彼此能够欣赏对方，分享对人类的共同看法。
“我尤其记得，一个春天的主日与中国代表团在亚西西度过的一天：他们被方济各的圣所吸引住，在我们当中营造的气氛令我对一个重大的希望敞开了心门，这希望在随后的年代使我得到了支持，它至今仍在支持著我。”
关于本地化和中国化，帕罗林枢机指出，“本地化是有效宣讲福音的必要条件”。利玛窦的经历为此作了典型的见证。“未来必将深入探讨这个议题，尤其是‘本地化’与‘中国化’之间的关系”。“本地化”与“中国化”这两个概念彼此呼应，既不混淆也不对立：它们能够相辅相成，为宗教和文化层面的对话敞开远景。“中国天主教徒是这项工作的主角，他们蒙召活出修和，做真正的中国人和十足的天主教徒”。
帕罗林枢机最后谈到圣座与中国能够合作的领域，包括促进和平、对抗贫穷、环境和气候紧急情况，以及移民、科学进步的道德问题、各民族的经济和社会发展。“对圣座而言，最重要的是将人的尊严置于所有这些领域的中心，首先承认人的基本权利，其中包括宗教自由的权利和促进公益，因为它关乎众人和每个人的益处”。
